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# _general
s
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n
I briefly went down this path a few months ago, and came across this comparison site, though it doesn't compare all of them: https://www.whatmatrix.com/comparison/Application-Virtualization
m
I’ve never heard of Turbo.net, anyone used them?
r
I heard of the name, but that is it.
I used FlexApp and it's super good.
k
@Rory Monaghan did some work with/for Turbo
j
AppCure, cloudhouse, Zaptz all spring to mind, Rimo but that gets things into msix. AppVentix is a distribution tool for AppV and msix @Oz Zy speaks highly of turbo
o
My man Kenji at Turbo is our go to now. He's our ofiicial partner in this space. He just hasn't had the same marketing push getting the word out in the EUC space, so similar to what Shane and I with Sam and Automai over there getting them into the fold, we will probably be helping out Kenji over at Turbo as well.
m
Nice will have to check them out
c
I am liking the flexibility of AppVolumes at the minute
k
Can you still get Cloudhouse’s product after the deal with AWS @James Kindon?
j
I have absolutely no idea on that one actually - was reading on the aws emp thingo and didn't realise that was cloudhouse under the hood - crazy
j
Turbo is OK, yes I still use Cloudhouse, the AWS deal was for some SQL stuff. Don't forget App-V with AppVentix!
n
It's hard to pick a direction. We have apps replaced with AdminStudio (rare), delivered via SCCM to thick clients. Then we have App-V packages delivered via Citrix, apps installed in XenApp, and apps layered into XenDesktop with App Layering. Intune is likely on the way, too, along with MSIX. I don't know if a single solution that could be used to package and deploy everything.
j
That's the issue. There is no absolute answer to any of this. Pick a solution - go 80-20. The only thing I try and do absolutely is the repository model. What underpins it - well, that depends
m
Flexapp seems to solve for not requiring a ton of base images as it can load to the image on boot or the iser on login but I'm guessing most of the others can do that too?
I don't know that there's a need for full app Virtualization as none of this needs to live on a different OS version for example
In my use case anyway
j
Yeah all others can do similar, I'm not a fan of flexapp tbh
m
Do tell, I haven't used it yet
j
The key is deployment ease, not isolation
m
The customer has an entitlement to it though so we were headed that way
j
Being able to build a bare bones OS with the core apps and then delivering the apps in the user context is key
m
Yeah we need something that's easier to manage than the current solution which is giving everyone a persistent machine and installing via sccm
j
Well it's horses for courses but I'm a big fan of Appventix and Chocolatey - smooths the way for InTune and MsIX
Fuck persistent
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n
We need to be able to deliver to both physical and virtual endpoints, in our use case.
j
Easy enough done. That sort of alignment is core to our strategy for apps. Repository FTW!
o
For us, we are doing quite a bit in health care where we are getting to a point of legacy IE and legacy OS apps and needed true isolation/portability from the OS itself so everything can be packaged (even if legacy needing old operating system) and ran within our Win10/Win11 environments. Turbo is doing what we need there as well as the other stuff mentioned. FlexApp IMO falls into the app layering side of things more and not taking it to the level of isolation that Numecent ($$$$$$$$$$$$) and Turbo do for that last piece to worry about. Currently with IE impending doom in 30 days, apps designed for it, will need to be isolated as well in this space and unfortunately still quite a few in health care. Lots to choose from in this space dependent on the exact features needed no doubt.
j
Like I said, it depends if your "app virt" piece handles isolation, deployment or both. Numecent and App-V AFAIK can handle both. The likes of Cloudhouse/Turbo just do the isolation, AppVolumes/FlexApp/etc. just do the deployment. Not sure if MSIX counts as isolated or not.
n
I can't even find videos for packaging in Turbo.net anywhere.
James, when you say Repository for deploying to physical and virtual, what utilities are you thinking? And are you just referring to the deployment side? We're looking into alternatives for sequencing, as well.
j
At a basic level, I am talking fronting package managers (so for example, Chocolatey would be one for Windows, Brew for MacOS, RPM for Linux, etc.) through a repository such as Artifactory, Nexus, ProGet and the like
This is mainly for "core" apps and self-serve apps for the users
You can also leverage "infra management" tools like Ansible, Chef, Puppet, InTune, etc.
Pretty convoluted to try and explain in short, but here's a high-level example
d
for App-V, MSIX, MSIX-App Attach deployments I'd 100% would go for deployment via Appventix. It's not expensive, no big ass backend needed, no learning curve (and if so, fire that guy). Stable, cloud ready with blob-storage support.
n
I have probably asked this question before, but if you use AppVentiX, that alone will allow you to use App Attach, right? Or is this still an AVD only feature?
d
yes
j
Is App Attach AVD-only?
n
THe only documentation I have ever found only references AVD
j
Sure you can do it anywhere that it's capable
d
ow sorry, misread, I thought he was asking if it supported app attach
j
So you need an upstream OS, but no reliance on AVD - I could be wrong but that's how I thought it worked
d
think I have app attach with normal OS yes
n
Yeah, no AVD in play here. Ideally, we'd be using the latest Server OS for XenApp, and W10 20H2+ for workstation OS.
d
let's ask @Bram Wolfs
n
I just can't find any references to using App Attach on anything other than AVD
Can I use MSIX app attach outside of Azure Virtual Desktop? MSIX and MSIX app attach APIs are part of Windows 10 Enterprise and Windows 10 Enterprise Multi-session, version 2004 and later. We currently don't provide management software for MSIX app attach outside of Azure Virtual Desktop.
j
"we currently don't provide management software....outside of AVD"
So AppVentix fills the gap
👍 1
What "management software" are they talking about inside AVD?
n
I assume the PS cmdlets, but they don't specify.
j
"management software" 🙄
n
And yeah, that's what I was wondering with AppVentiX. If I can use that on W10 and S22 for App Attach, that seems like the clear solution moving forward. We could move from our MS App-V environment to that and then use it to jump from App-V in general to MSIX in the future.
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d
I'll quickly convert an MSIX to App Attach and test it on normal W11 VM
j
@Nick Panaccio that's my whole approach with AppVentix in a nutshell
@Dennis van Dam needs to be multi-session for App Attach (I think)
n
I should also note that for us, W10 would be single session...
b
Thanks guys, app attach works perfectly outside AVD, it's builtin the Windows OS. With AppVentiX easy to manage in or outside AVD
j
@Bram Wolfs so you can App Attach on a single-session OS?
b
Yes single and multi session Win 10 (20H2 or higher) and on Windows 2022 server
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n
Outstanding.
j
<kerching>
b
🍻 👍
Yes and in Central View console you can centrally manage and make app attach visible (which apps are attached where)
d
so yes, it's deployed as app attach to W11, in a few minutes I converted an AppV to MSIX to App Attached with the Appventix Central View Console. And the amazing part is that I don't have any knowledge of any of the solutions 🙂
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And what I saw is that once you convert a published MSIX to App Attach, that the MSIX is moved to a backup folder and is replaced with app attach
download the trial and convince the customer about how godlike this is 😉
n
So you still need to convert legacy installs to MSIX using MS's tool.
d
no
j
Yeah, but if they're App-V just use AppVentix
(to convert them)
n
Yeah, for our App-V stuff, I'd consider just converting.
d
appv > msix > app attach can all be done via Appventix
j
Yeah but MSI packages still need to be converted via another method
d
try it out, you'll need to replace your profile pic afterwards with one that has an even bigger smile
b
More software vendors will be releasing MSIX directly, for example Mozilla. Office365 will also be MSIX. Can take some time
n
That's what I was getting at. We still also find old exe installers, too.
j
But for anyone with a significant investment into App-V 5, AppVentix is an absolute no-brainer for me
n
This is healthcare, so we get a lot of trash software
b
Yes other installs can be created\captured with for example MSIX packaging tool
j
@Nick Panaccio back to my point about software repositories
n
BobsCardio.exe
j
You can manage anything with a package manager
Even stuff like BobsCardio.exe - package manager gives you version control of that
Go look at Chocolatey or WinGet
I even push AppVentix through Chocolatey
b
😊 👍
j
Machine builds --> Chocolatey pulls in all core software (inc. AppVentix agent) --> AppVentix agent starts --> AppVentix pulls in all non-core software (or publishes it into the user session when they log on)
b
I think more then half of AppVentiX customers are healthcare, they often have a wide diversity of apps to manage
Also government
n
We're in the midst of trying to sort out the direction we want to head. Us Citrix guys want to expand the offering, so we want to virtualize apps for deployment via Citrix (no requirement on corporate hardware for app access).
b
Application management is often done by other teams so abstracting them from the base and dynamically deliver them so they can be updated during machine runtime and without modifying the base, is a great use case
n
This is a dumb question, but do you see your healthcare customers actually using AppVentiX for their physical workstations, too? Almost as a replacement for SCCM app deployments?
j
There's no reason why you couldn't. If it's App-V/MSIX, then sure
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n
Trying to think of why we'd still want to use SCCM or InTune if we made a switch
j
But if you're into SCCM for MSI deployment, then it's a stretch to replace all of that
n
for app deployment specifically
Well, we have a project to investigate virtualizing all of our SCCM apps, so that may be happening regardless
If that project moves forward, I think it'd be smart to figure out the end goal so that we don't duplicate work. If we want to shift away from SCCM, now would be the time.
j
Yep, you need a defined end goal. Most enterprises I see are looking at MSIX/App Attach/InTune/Company Portal as their end game, but there's a lot of wood to chop to get there. Because I typically work in big estates with lots of devs, adopting the repo-based model makes a lot of sense for alignment. If your end goals are similar, then you need some interim stages and technologies to get there. But the key part is analyzing your entire app estate in terms of deployment capability, limitations, application roadmap, etc. Once you understand what you're trying to deliver and what you're trying to aspire to, then you can fit the framework and toolset around that as necessary
b
Yes AppVentiX can also be used for fat\physical deployments
The next version of AppVentiX will also support Azure AD only so it can run along side with Intune
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In the end hybrid solutions will stay the most common I think, not everything fits in one basket
m
So if you don't have anything packaged as msix or appv is there any point looking at appventix?
This shop has everything packaged via ivanti or flexera and pushed via sccm
j
I will let Bram answer that one, but if you see MSIX in your future, then AppVentix is about the only decent GUI management and publishing tool for it (and it doesn't need infrastructure to support it either)
m
I don't know enough about MSIX to know if it's something I should be pushing people towards over what they are doing currently. I haven't played in the app virt or packaging space before
j
Well, it's what every architect seems to want - native Microsoft packaging method. No additional cost. Containerized apps delivered "mobile phone" style. I guess it's the nirvana for a lot of people. Not all apps will go there quietly though, hence the ecosystem springing up around it
b
Yep, it will take some time but MSIX will be the only application format on Windows at the end, that's where Microsoft wants to go. MSIX is very flexible in terms of deployment and updating. It integrates well in Windows and there is less pollution compared to traditional installers with all kind of left overs and difficult update mechanisms. When Microsoft starts to deploy their own software with MSIX more and more other software vendors will follow. Will take some time, but I think how earlier companies are start looking at it the more advantage they will have.
m
for app layering tech vs app virt, do you need to build the package on the exact same OS you will deploy to? So you can’t for instance build on server 2019 and deploy to win10/win10MU/2019?
b
Yes correct for layering this is very sensitive because the layers are built upon the same disk
n
At least in App-V, you can sequence it and allow it to run on multiple OS types.
I have no idea how well that works, though.
c
You can do the same and allow multiple OS's to use the same AppVolumes package too. With the last release though its been easier to automate and script the application installations, so I just use a gitlab pipeline to install each application against each base OS (in my case W10 and S16/S19). This thread has really got me thinking about MSIX.. so thanks everyone. Its been incredibly informative.
j
I just package on the lowest downstream OS I want to run on and it generally works on all newer. MsIX packaging needs to be done on a fairly new version of Win10 tho
I sequence a lot on Server 2016 and it runs fine on all Win10 versions
n
Can you use an MSIX package on both W10 and S16+?
the same MSIX package, I should say
j
No, it has to be 2019 or 2022 Server I think (2022 better). I was referring to App-V when I said I sequence on 2016
n
I know
But wait, MSIX... W10 packages would work on S19 and 2022? That would work for me.
I have no intention of building anything else S16
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j
I send my MSIX to Server OS via Appventix currently, yeah, sequenced on Win10
Haven't done anything hugely complex though #caveat
n
The deployment is less of a concern, honestly. It's the packaging that will wind up being the problem.
j
You need some automation then.....Appventix, Rimo3, Advanced Installer, etc., these are good things to start exploring
n
I have automation, I tell the packagers to package that shit up and let me know when it's done...
😂 1
j
Ha, yeah it's those packagers you need to automate
m
I think liquidware were workin on being able to have automation tools do the app installs for FlexApp, @Jack Smith?
d
Flexapp is really cool, just give them a try, don't expect it to be the MSIX successor but still it is a cool solution that has focus from vendor side
k
if you use turbo with PVS do you have to make the cache drive bigger?
j
Probably. I don't use PVS or MCS with any of these solutions
a
Great thread! Ive been thinking about these approaches lately. We will pretty soon have "Citrix" desktops on prem and in the cloud, avd, azure lab services, other clouds, etc. I keep coming back to Numecent as the best way to try to manage app deployment across that landscape. Id love to hear from people doing something similar. We are currently all citrix app layering and that will not fly for some of the daas stuff like azure lab services
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