What do you consider integration tests? Send http request and assert html response?

broadly I think http is a bad medium to test at

i would test the back end domain logic exercised by the server side controller

and then have end-to-end front end tests

but I haven't done this style of testing in a while, so things may be different now

w/ better http testing tools (esp. since JSON is so popular)

I'm thinking e2e still a good choice, but somehow to fix the flakiness of them

Game developers do it all the time. Jonathan Blow is testing his game by recording how he plays each level and then replaying that

He is able to do 1k+ levels this way, single man

So the flakiness is the real problem no be solved

The real medium to be tested at is a human to computer interface

Which is real interaction

Flakiness to me seems like a bad implementation of the testing tool, that's it. Because when a human interacts with a website, he doesn't have any flakiness. So why the tool should have it? Doesn't make sense to me. Thus, that's the real problem to solve

humans are extremely resilient in the face of novel situations

Don't disagree with the spirit of this meme but I've been building a bunch of stuff with NodeJS and HTMX lately and if you pick a good templating engine you don't need a build step at all (and the async runtime is tremendous). Obviously that's not how most people do Node development, but if you're using HTMX you're already committed to evangelizing 😆

fair!

Yuuuuup. It can be difficult to be inquisitive as a node dev when constantly bombarded with frameworks that promise the universe if one adopts the magical convoluted stack / build system.

At least one gets the blissful thrill of a new framework every few months

If my 2 cents are worth anything, htmx being 1 file drop in JS has been so helpful. I find a bunch of functions in 1 file easy to put break points in the browser to step through what is going on. This makes it easier for me to figure out what is actually happening when I can't figure something out from the documentation. If htmx were written in typescript and there were a bunch of build steps and all of that stuff, I wouldn't attempt to deal with the source code. If I am going to go through all of that and the team I am working with needs to go through all of that, it would call into question whether it makes sense to use htmx since one of its selling points vs. Vue/React/whatever-flavor-of-the-month is not having to know all that stuff (obviously love it for other reasons too).

Yeah I learned perl with that book! As an intern at hgtv.com in 2012

I like this discord server. Idk why exactly, but it's enjoyable

👴

I also think a lot of people underrate that javascript has some of the best backwards compatibility guarantees of any language (because the experience of using npm is the opposite). even if you haven't had the distinct pain of performing a TypeScript major version upgrade, JavaScript is guaranteed to work pretty much as long as browsers exist. that's a big deal!

say what one will, this is very true

I write my js code like it is 2012, and it continues to work

I was actually going to write something like that in my initial comment. Especially if htmx goes unmaintained it would continue to work, but I didn’t want to manifest that reality 🙃

I can't find the exact book I used to learn to program, but it was something like this...

🦕

you should see my first programming book