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I'd like to start a respectful discussion about th...
# general
a
I'd like to start a respectful discussion about the hashkafa of long-term financial planning. What are some things that you heard or where taught about planning for the future and bitachon?
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a
"all you need to do is make a Χ›ΧœΧ™"
w
Explain what you mean
a
@wooden-belgium-47527 for an extreme example, I have heard in the name of a respected rav, that stocking up on peanut butter on sale is a lack of bitachon. I have heard of someone else who was told by his rav that he should not carry over savings from one year to the next. These two examples lean towards the side that saving, or planning ahead show a lack of bitachon. In this diverse crowd on this slack I'm sure there are other perspective that lean towards working within natural means to plan for long term future based on a Torah view of bitachon. Life insurance is an example of where this plays out. There are well known teshuvos regarding this. What are the sides pro and against?
@ambitious-minister-86829 great. Does that keli have to be the right size, or does anything count? Do we look at at making a keli for today, this week, month, year, few years, or life, etc.?
a
Unfortunately (or fortunately) that's all that was said πŸ™‚
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m
I don't have what to add, but I'm really excited about this thread.
w
@mysterious-tomato-10057 time to get some Rabbanim/Mashpieim for frum.finance
Specifically the slack
m
I've actually been working on it and struggling but recently got new recommendations of people to try out. But yes, I strongly agree @wooden-belgium-47527
m
If I'm not mistaken, the Rebbe said about life insurance that is Segullah for Arichus Yamim.
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m
Yeah so culturally we've been able to get life insurance to be universally accepted. I think the heart of the question is, should we or shouldn't we do the same thing regarding long term investing.
a
I've heard that regarding buying burial plots. Not in the name of anyone specially
a
@mysterious-tomato-10057 I'm not sure how universally accepted. There (were/are?) poskim who stood up against it and there might be circles were it is still not accepted today. (Hence, another reason for areivim)
m
@steep-dog-55906 @boundless-mouse-70301 @eager-smartphone-39564 @nutritious-raincoat-28876 @curved-toothbrush-84425 @thankful-raincoat-91160 @fast-megabyte-10597 @thankful-angle-58448 @bored-jewelry-48369 @melodic-restaurant-25257 tagging some people I think would have some great insight.
@acceptable-angle-23240 that is a big surprise to hear! Though I am not too surprised given Rabonim telling some people I've come across that they are not allowed to save any money from year to year.
a
@mysterious-tomato-10057 I've seen the teshuvos. I don't remember from who. I don't know if its followed today. That's part of the reason I started the discussion. It's not about life insurance per se, but really to get an idea of the full gamut of hashkafos out there.
General disclaimer: what you read here may surprise you. Please keep the discussion respectful as invariably, as misguided as one may think a certain perspective might be, it's probably coming from a rav who is respected in their community and respected by the person sharing it
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w
As well, sometimes people quote rabbanim Mashpieim etc. And they are 1. not giving full context 2. Misunderstanding his words 3. Did not hear directly and thus his real words got lost in translation 4. Making things up. So even if you are 100% confident that it's wrong, sometimes it's the messenger and not the person being quoted.
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n
I will venture to say that there is no single correct answer here. That said, based on my understanding of bitachon, in this generation there are very few people (certainly from those who use slack, i.e. not gedolei hador etc) who are on the level of such bitachon. Certainly there's a level where someone can sit in front of a gemara and put his entire trust in Hashem. But that's a really high level. Someone asking such a shailoh would in my eyes be signalling that they are not on this level of bitachon by the fact that they need to ask. Purely my $0.02 πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ
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s
This is a great topic. I'd challenge people to determine why this is different than your basic hishtadlus/bitachon balance, even in short term planning. The way I personally think about it (or try to) is have bitachon that Hashem will provide for me in my later years, the same way He does now. And the action He wants me to take for that is to put away some savings/invest, which is very standard practice
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m
The way I think about it which albeit is lacking well founded sources like the many @acceptable-angle-23240 has shown me is similar to the story of a man drowning in the ocean and telling the boats that come by he doesn’t need help because hashem will save him. Maybe I lack bitachon but to me investing for the future is the vehicle Hashem gives us today for survival in the future for our families.
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b
I heard from Rav Leichter in Israel (in the Headlines podcast on life insurance) that you can't force people to have a certain level of Bitachon. Whether something is a "lack" of Bitachon or not doesn't really matter, it matters what level the person in question is on. I think intuitively that resonates - i.e. if someone gets extremely anxious and can't enjoy life because they're not saving any money than it would probably be the correct thing for that person to save money. I also have a hard time understanding who determines an "objective" level of Bitachon - i.e. maybe the correct level of Bitachon is to only keep enough money to support us for today and the rest give to Tzedakkah. Anyone who can't do that "lacks" Bitachon. That's why it's hard to hear "objective" lines. The caveat could be if a Rav knows the questioner intimately and determines that doing X would be a lack of the questioners Bitachon - but that's very subjective.
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There's also the consideration that it's not necessarily just your Bitachon that needs to be considered - e.g. when it comes to life insurance the wife and kids are the ones who have to deal with the fact that the father didn't have insurance. Maybe they're not on that level to handle the extreme expenses that come with living in today's frum world. I believe (I think it was stated on the Headlines podcast) that the families are usually stripped of their dignity in the process of raising money for them. I think what @steep-dog-55906 and @mysterious-tomato-10057 said fit very well in today's financial structure. Our expenses aren't linear, so saving now, getting life insurance, etc could very well be the vehicles we should be taking to cover those future expenses.
m
I have a hard time believing this is at all related to the individual. If someone has so much bitachon that he lives day to day, when something goes wrong, do the rest of us that lack bitachon still have a chiyuv to take care of his poor planning by supporting the family?
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s
@mysterious-tomato-10057 I think that's walking a very fine line. What about someone who has no bitachon, does tons of hishtadlus, and everting falls through. Should we support him because he tried hard? How should his spiritual level figure into things? I hear how we should encourage people to understand the basic levels of "normal" and discourage people being a burden on the community (in line with the Rambam iirc.) But let's make sure that when people need help, they get it regardless of the judgment of the giver. It's a zechus to be able to give.
(@mysterious-tomato-10057 I don't think you were insinuating not to give! Just don't agree with the phrasing πŸ™ˆ)
m
@steep-dog-55906 Very well said. Another reason I am excited about this thread/topic. I certainly struggle with having the right perspective on these matters. The lines get messy. We need to make hard decisions about who/when to give to since we don’t have infinite resources, so some judgement has to come into play. Some organizations have me review families financial responsibility before they give them 0 interest loans for that very reason. Are we enabling bad behavior or helping someone? It is walking a fine line.
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b
Ya one of the hard questions to deal with is if someone was financially irresponsible (not giving a specific example of what's irresponsible) do we just leave the rest of the family out to dry because of that person's decisions? I definitely would not want to be given that decision to make
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m
@broad-australia-98095 Now we just send those families to frum.finance πŸ˜‰
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s
I once asked my mashpia if I should take on extra hours to make more money. He answered that if you have a plan of what to do with the "extra" money it's not a lack of bitachon. Being in today's day and age where people live a lot longer then they used to, it seems ridiculous to not prepare for retirement. Is it better to rely on your relatives or community to support your old age? I think it's the same as life insurance. It's not a lack of bitachon. It's thinking ahead.
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moneyparrot 1
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In regards to tshuvos that would say to basically live day to day, is it possible that back then a person worked till they died? Also, I would imagine that surprise expenses were less common. If someone didn't have money for something, they just didn't get it... Today, that is not the case (at least for most people).
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m
There are modern day poskim saying to live day to day though (I know of at least one)
b
Is he saying it's the ideal? I guess it leads me to another question - what are the consequences of "lack" of bitachon? I.e. if it's a lack of bitachon to not live day to day (using this example), is it an Issur to not live day to day?
w
I spoke to my Rebbi about this just 2 shabbosim ago. I don't have time to post anything now but bli neder will circle back.
I think @mysterious-tomato-10057 would half like what he said and half not.
m
If it's emes, I'll like all of it πŸ˜‰
f
Have a look at the Gemara .Χ Χ“Χ” Χ‘"Χ” and the Maharsha for a different perspective.
m
Can someone send this thread to anyone they know with a different perspective? I'm going to also because this seems a bit too much like an echo chamber
t
sometimes I feel like ppl use the bitachon thing as an excuse to not have to deal with financial planning/ responsible spending πŸ™ˆ But honestly, I think my perspective leans too far the other way so there's gotta be a happy medium somewhere and it might be different for each person πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ
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f
There is definitely precedent for different levels of Bitachon expected from different people. Part of the question might be can you use the β€œI’m not on that level of Bitachon” as an excuse.
a
I always understood the idea of only working enough to earn what you need for today's expenses is/was for people that learned the rest of their time otherwise.
Where does one draw the line on איזהו חכם הרואה אΧͺ Χ”Χ Χ•ΧœΧ“ ?
m
@ambitious-minister-86829 I'm not sure that makes sense because it's really a recursive argument. We all have to learn all day. Anyone who doesn't is used a heter that he needs to support his family. So it's a chicken and egg problem. What comes first? Bitachon or not working? I think bitachon has to be defined the same way for working and learning men, otherwise the argument is circular.
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b
I'm still trying to nail down the implications of the "lack" of Bitachon. We've established potential downsides of "too much" Bitachon, e.g. no life insurance = other people supporting the family. Are we saying a "lack" of Bitachon is specifically an issue if, say, used as a reason to not give Maaser? Not give more Tzedakkah? Not have more kids? Or are we talking purely from the vantage point of a theoretical understanding of what level of Bitachon is really required to function in our generation? A consequence could be whether or not this slack group should exist because we're promoting a "lack" of Bitachon.
t
There are stories of tzaddikim two hundred years ago, who did not keep money in their house overnight. I don't think that we are on that level. I am not aware of sources, but I will offer a couple of examples: Cheder Lubavitch in Chicago contributes something to a retirement fund for each teacher. I assume that the school doesn't expect the teachers to teach their whole life and wants to make sure that they are able to retire. One shliach I know told someone working for him that if he (employee) opened an IRA and put money in it, then he (employer) would match those contributions. As much as we expect Moshiach today, I think we need to save money for retirement. At some point in most people's lives, it is hard to earn money. If there isn't enough money saved at that point, it's a very sad situation.
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a
Wow! Lots of great points. I'm glad to have opened up the discussion. Clearly, there are different levels of bitachon. Ultimately it would be a personal rav who can guide a person on what is appropriate for them, so that they are not, on one hand, lacking in their bitachon, or on the other hand, acting like a greater tzadik than they actually are, and being negligent in doing their own hishtadlus. The recent financial independence thread is what got me thinking. It is clear that your average person needs to make hishtadlus. On a most basic level, in an agricultural society, if you do not plant, the grain will not grow. And that takes a few months. Where it gets murkier is when we start talking about retirement planning, and more so, financial independence. @faint-rose-48029 mentioned a Maharsha in Mseches Nidah that says the gemera teaches us that a person should save their money for old age, and not give it all away to their children, because when you are young it's easier to make money. However, is retirement, as in ceasing productive activity, a Jewish value? That is a topic of discussion for itself. The FI perspective goes even further, to look at your entire life, and come up with a plan of how you will sustain yourself over the course of your entire life. It would seem that even the shoddiest plan is better than no plan, but do we really know what the future holds for us? There is a strong argument to made that since saving for retirement is the norm in today's society/economic structure, this is the move that a person is obligated to make as part of their hishtadlus and failure to do so could be considered negligence (Χ’Χ•Χ–Χœ Χ—Χ™Χ™ Χ Χ€Χ©Χ•). If I recall correctly, this is the rationale offered in at least one teshuva in support of buying life insurance. I gravitated to the term "lack of" bitachon, since there are various levels of bitachon, and only the ultimate level of bitachon would be "complete" (without any lack). It doesn't mean it's for everyone. So while hypothetically, stocking up on peanut butter on sale might be a lack of bitachon for a tzadik who only buys peanut butter from the corner store next to his beis medrash, and only when his jar runs out, for an average person it might a prudent, responsible shopping move (Χ”ΧͺΧ•Χ¨Χ” Χ—Χ‘Χ” גל ΧžΧžΧ•Χ Χ של Χ™Χ©Χ¨ΧΧœ). What would be the implications of the "lack" of Bitachon for an individual on his level? At the risk of stating obvious, parnasa comes from the One Above. It follows that we want to be on "good terms" (for lack of a more meaningful term) with Him. So we trust in him and know that he will provide for us. Getting too involved in hishtadlus to make the keli, to the detriment of our Torah & Mitzvos, would be counter-productive. So the question is, what is "too involved?" Maybe "standard" retirement planning is "normal" hishtadlus today, while FI planning is going too far into playing G-d? (I told @mysterious-tomato-10057 this might end up as an argument against FI πŸ˜‰) I don't claim to have the answers here. These are just musings. AYLOR I hope we can get to hear from those who haven't chimed in yet and continue the discussion.
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s
@acceptable-angle-23240 I hear, but when it comes to the FI questions, I'd ask what's the practical difference. If it was a matter of "FI means work as much as you can now to free up time later," then I'd understand the question. But my understanding of FI (I'm not a big follower) is that's not it - it's work what you want now but be intelligent about how you spend it. I don't see how that takes away time from correct pursuits. Unless of course you spend all your time in financial research, etc, in which case I'd agree it's perhaps excessive.
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b
Btw started googling 'AYLOR' and realized halfway through what it meant πŸ˜‚
t
@acceptable-angle-23240 all good points. I would just say, since I was the one trying to figure out how to FIRE in that other thread (if we're talking about the same one), that I don't think trying to figure out how a mother can leave her job is antithetical to any values of ours. It is unbelievably difficult to be raising a family with two working parents. Living a life of luxury while sipping margaritas on the beach was not the goal, being able to handle dentists/doctor/speech/OT/etc appointments without stress, while also meeting financial obligations comfortably, is my goal.
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m
and my $0.01 is in my experience bitachon and personality types get very blurred. like someone very laidback who doesnt worry about finances (not because they have it but because they dont β€œmind” the end of month panic about buying chicken fro shabbos) can walk around saying they have bitachon that Hashem will provide what they need and they dont plan for the future because it fits with their belief system. Whereas someone who is financially anxious (nothing to do with what money is actually in their bank) would not necessarily manage to have that attitude. I also think that personality types == people have different histadlus. so someone who is a more financially anxious type, their bitachon β€œtest” (for example) is even if they’ve put away plenty money for retirement is to realise that anything could happen to it and Hashem is in charge still ie not all because i was so clever all those years ago. tl:dr, i think peoples innate financial tendencies really conflate with bitachon levels.
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c
Some personal thoughts: β€’ The Torah says vnishmartem meod es nafshosechem. I don't see why parnassah would work differently than your health. β€’ I view hishtadlus not as doing just something, but as doing everything within your power and then at the point where you literally cant do anymore God takes over and helps you bridge the gap. β€’ You aren't supposed to rely on miracles. β€’ Bitachon doesn't have to mean you believe God will give you something for doing nothing, it can also mean you believe He will make your hard work pay off. β€’ Its just plain rude to make God do all the work. Be a good person and help him out in any way you can πŸ™‚
e
@acceptable-angle-23240 Do you believe in wearing seatbelts? Maintaining a healthy diet? Avoiding unsafe neighborhoods? If so, why would you call the importance of financial fitness into question?
m
I just want to call out that @acceptable-angle-23240 is intentionally not giving his opinion here and just trying to spark the discussion. I think everyone in this thread is on the side of financial planning over "bitachon". I am trying to find people to join this thread to make a case for the many that do it differently
w
I asked my Rebbe about financial education a few weeks ago. The question was actually precipitated by participation in this slack space. As a financial newbie, I've been so inundated by the litany of options of how/when/what to invest that it becomes overwhelming very quickly. There are like 932 different types of IRAs that I've learned about now. (OK maybe like 4 or 5.) The "intro" to financial education from frum.finance has 50+ hours of material. So, given the above: a) am I being a poshei'a in my financial wellbeing by not investing time into understanding the picture? How much time or how much level of understanding is expected to be considered "responsible"? I could easily spend 20 hours a week and be busy for the foreseeable future. Some have a full time job out of this, so clearly there's a lot to know. b) am I violating the expectations of bitachon or temimus by spending a lot of time on it? How much is getting "too" involved or obsessed with my financial wellbeing over other worthy involvements? His initial response was that trying to be prepared for every expense (or even just ever major expense) that will come up is not a practical thing for your average frum family. People don't save up for 10 chasunas and somehow they manage. You prepare for the short term future, and things work out. I pushed back and asked if there is then no such thing as preparing for retirement. Then my Rebbe rephrased it (I don't know if he was changing his mind or just clarifying, and I did not ask) that there is nothing wrong with putting away money, but there is a big difference between scaling back on expenses to skim off the top versus taking another job (or the like) to have more money for retirement. You don't sacrifice your quality of life now for your quality of life later. That did not fully answer my original question of what the appropriate level of hishtadlus is, but does give a very basic framework.
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e
I suppose of all of the points he made the one I struggle with the most is this notion that somehow people make it. Does he mean that everybody makes it on their own,
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or with the help of the broader community, and or society at large? I would push back strongly on the notion that every family finds a way to marry off their kids on their own,
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Based on very overwhelming anecdotal evidence of funding campaigns. Is he referring to the last 20 years during which the market and economy have flourished, or even during economic recessions that have been prolonged? Even among those people who have β€œmade it”, what do we know about their mental well-being?
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m
The β€œintro” to financial education from frum.finance has 50+ hours of material.
There is a lot I would still like to respond to in this thread, but I don’t want to let this one statement go unaddressed. @witty-engineer-80805, are there a lot of potential resources out there? Yes. Is it possible to get overwhelmed? Yes. But if you look on the website here, you’ll see that while there are many hours of materials, it says clearly that you don’t need to be overwhelmed by any of it or even go through all of it and to only read one book which is only a 6 hour read and I believe strongly that it is more than enough for the vast majority of families. https://frum.finance/recommendations/ Please keep your finances simple and don’t get overwhelmed because there is more information out there that you don’t need.
If you don’t have time for this whole list of recommendations, please read/listen to The Simple Path To Wealth. It is more than enough for most families.
The quoted opening line on the website that is the preface to my long list of recommendations.
w
Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that I am overwhelmed (I'm not sure if I am or not) but rather that the amount of material can be overwhelming and therefore I think that it is a very fair question to wonder how much investment of time and mental energy a person who isn't so well-versed is expected to spend. I think comparing it to wearing a seatbelt is disingenuous - that takes half a second and no research and none of my free time.
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n
Even among those people who have β€œmade it”, what do we know about their mental well-being?
To add to this point, I have on excellent authority that in Israel, where making a wedding involves buying the couple an apartment, numerous "too-young" people have collapsed from heart attacks after their children got engaged. 😒
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Once we get to the bitachon question with regard to retirement, etc., we can go the whole hog and ask if investing time/money getting a degree/certification/training is a "lack" of bitachon.
m
That's a great thread to start after this one! Again though I'm worried this slack will be too much of an echo chamber.
e
@witty-engineer-80805 I respect your point about the difference in bitul zman issues - my seatbelt analogy was mainly to contest the idea that taking action to lower the risk of future issues demonstrates a lack of bitachon. I think finding the sweet spot on how much time to invest - no pun intended - is a much more worthwhile discussion.
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m
I agree that would be a great thread topic!
a
@eager-smartphone-39564 I believe financial fitness is important. The grey area for me is how far should one go to cover every eventuality, or to pursue wealth for its own sake. What I've noticed in frum.finance's efforts to increase financial literacy in the frum world, there is some pushback. Take Baruch's latest article https://frum.finance/finance/you-have-it-backwards/ about the importance of intentionality in a housing decision that will push back retirement a few years. I think part of the pattern he identifies stems from a (perhaps misapplied) bitachon mentality. God provides for me daily. He gave me this money, so that I can live comfortably. He will continue to provide for me, so while I know that its financially prudent to prepare for retirement, it isn't "my problem" to deal with. (Keep in mind that in many circles we make major life decisions such as getting married and having kids with no prior financial plan. This becomes an ingrained habit) That's really why I wanted to bring up this topic. And what we see is that there is a range of ideas of what bitachon is and what it means for an individual. By bringing this issue to light we can address it in the most comprehensive way and come to the best outcome for everyone. I think that by digging deeper in to bitachon and financial literacy we'll find that financial fitness is not a contradiction to trust in Hashem.
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Just as we recognize that people have varying risk tolerance, frum Jews have various views/beliefs/mentalities about bitachon. If we delve deeper into bitachon we might find that the ultimate bitachon is using G-d given financial tools to create the medium for His blessings to flow forth.
m
I think finding the sweet spot on how much time to invest - no pun intended - is a much more worthwhile discussion.
new episode of choosefi deals with this in a few spots. Basically, financial enthusiasts actually spend very little time dealing with their own finances. Mostly they are talking about it all the time with other people because its so fascinating how easy it is so we want to encourage others to make the same small changes we made that providing incredible benefit back to us. Keep it simple and don’t spend so much time on it. https://www.choosefi.com/what-are-you-optimizing-for-chris-hutchins-ep-423/
@acceptable-angle-23240 I definitely agree that bitachon is a really big player here. Certain families have told me flat out that they can’t work with me because they really feel like it is β€œa shiola on emunah”. Idk if everyone is so self aware though. I also think you are 100% right that the first step to overcoming this hump is talking about it!
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One interesting point here is that most of us are using emotions to justify our own perspective and actions. I'd love to see the same conversation where we are only allowed to cite seforim to make our points. In other words, I can explain why I think long-term investing is essential for a frum family, but I don't feel as though I have a storng halachic or haskafic backing to use as my soap box.
c
I couldn't tell you exactly where its quoted, but there is definitely a thing that you are not supposed to rely on tzedakah.
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m
Yeah so that is sourced in multiple places in halachah, but I think to play β€œbitachon advocate” they would say that they aren’t relying on tzedakah by not planning 40 years in the future. Rather, they are living off what hashem provides and he will provide enough that they wont need tzedaka
c
I guess the question would become why stop that logic at any point? Just wait at your table when you're hungry and someone will come knocking with the food.
ie why is 40 years a long time, maybe 40 minutes is a long time.
m
nah because in order to receive brachos you have to do your hishtadlus, which they define as 40 hours a week of work. Its the beyond that they argue against.
c
My point is that if they want to argue past the 40 hour work week I would argue the before. You can't argue that the 40 hour work week is hishtadlus without having evidence of it, and then say that planning far into the future is not hishtadlus but require evidence if someone does think its hishtadlus. The argument needs to be consistent (and not because thats just the way I feel). Also if the reason is that its because its whats normal to do in the world. Its pretty normal to save for retirement, even if most people don't have the self control to do it, just as its normal to eat healthy even though most of the country is overweight or obese.
m
@curved-toothbrush-84425 I don’t know if its fair to say its β€œnormal” to save for retirement. I would say most of our community does not actually have a proper retirement plan.
c
Most of the community don't eat healthy either, but that doesn't make it abnormal to do so.
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Meaning its accepted in the world as a healthy thing to do, regardless of whether or not people do it.
m
we have a #C04HQ5WSZ17 channel where we can start complaining about the eating habits next.
c
We could also try to do a statistical analysis/study to see based on whether or not people saved for retirement when they were younger and how much they now rely on tzedakah to see whether not saving for retirement would constitute relying on tzedakah. That would provide some data.
m
Would that have any halachic impact?
c
Why not? It would provide evidence that it does or doesn't lead to relying on tzedakah.
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w
I agree strongly with @mysterious-tomato-10057 about this. I have a lot of "my opinions" about what is reasonable hishtadlus and what the expectation of bitachon is, I can even marshal some gemaras and halachos to support it, but at the end of the day these are complicated topics and random people (no offense to those present) asserting their own feelings about it doesn't seem productive. That all in addition to the fact that arguing about Torah on the internet is probably ranked right around poking myself in the eyeballs with rusty nails in my list of things I like to do.
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m
@witty-engineer-80805 agree with everything besides the arguing Torah on the Internet. I actually think this is a productive conversation that can result in a beautiful article formally comparing the different perspectives and their foundations in Torah.
w
Yeah it's just my personal preference, gained from too many years of "debating" Torah with people on the internet. It's somehow always 100x more frustrating than talking to a human In Real Life ℒ️ .
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b
@witty-engineer-80805 I disagree with the notion of "random people" asserting their opinion. In regards to ourselves we are not random. While I agree we are not qualified to give a Psak of any sort, I think the feelings of the general populace should be taken into consideration by the Rav who is being asked. Maybe "feelings" is the wrong word. I think "experiences" would be better. If we don't factor in the experiences of the general populace I believe that's a mistake. I personally would not go to a Rav that doesn't factor that in. Sources are important but it's easy to cite sources and say that you are on higher ground. Case in point, @mysterious-tomato-10057 mentioned it's obvious Hishtadlus is 40 hours a week but I can cite the Rambam who says that you only need to work 4 hours a day. I have even heard a Rabbi say that is the ideal even if we don't actually do it. But I think we all agree that only working 20 hours a week would not be enough Hishtadlus. So who determines that? It would be someone who can combine sources with the contemporary economic situation with proper Sechel. I would assert if there is a Rav who says one thing and the general populace says that's not their experience then there's a disconnect. I just want to reiterate, I am not saying we should be the one's to decide anything. But I also don't think people's experiences should be discounted and we should have to be citing sources.
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w
Ok. So I am not sure what you believe yourself to be disagreeing with me about. Are you saying you think that when I ask my trusted Rav for his shikul hada'as for myself, I should make sure to tell him how you feel? Because if so, then yes I disagree, my Rav doesn't need to know your opinion to discuss my life. If you're saying that a Rav should know the situation of the person who is asking and not discount the feelings and experiences of the asker? Yes I was never suggesting that anyone, whether they have Rabbi before their name or not, should be paskening for someone out of a book without taking the situation into account, and I believe that to be true for most areas of halacha. If you're saying that in this particular topic, knowing the situation means knowing more broadly what people's situations are, then I agree with that. I don't think the "sevaras" discussed in this thread have anything to do with that. If you're saying that your, or any "random" person's, opinions and sevaras on what the halacha should be (as have been expressed at several points in this discussion) should be taken into consideration by myself or my Rav when he gives me hadracha, then yes I disagree.
b
I don't either think we disagree for the most part. If you go to your Rav for your personal question, I wouldn't expect him to necessarily even take another Rav's opinion into account (unless he was really unsure of something).
I'll I'm pointing out is that adding citations to this thread shouldn't necessarily be given more credence (with the exception of quoting a contemporary Rav who knows what it's like to live in today's economic society)
w
My issue is with proclamations of "of course a person should XYZ, because of this point that I am asserting with no source or maybe a gemara which could be interpreted this way or 7 other ways."
But at this point I'm going to fall back on my previous statement that I absolutely hate having these discussions online.
b
The only point I would disagree on is that if someone goes to their Rav and says they feel they want to live day to day (in the extreme example) and he says that's great, this runs into the situation pointed out earlier where that person's bad financial decisions lead to other people supporting their family. That's extreme but I do think if a person goes to a Rav and they decide on a reality that is irrational then that could be an issue. However, I'm also not saying the people on this chat would be making that call, I'm just pointing out the decision isn't just in a vacuum.
"But at this point I'm going to fall back on my previous statement that I absolutely hate having these discussions online." lol I get that.
m
I’d like to clarify a previous point of mine regarding bringing sources/feelings as someone has let me know that they personally took what I was saying the wrong way, so I want to clarify in case anyone else misunderstood. This thread is about bitachon, which as we all know there is a spectrum of opinions and different ways to view it. There isn’t a β€œright” answer, but it is important for us all to discuss so we can understand the different viewpoints better. I thought it was interesting that we mostly weren’t bringing sources, and I am also not well versed on the different viewpoints in hashkafa (and I already have my own as validated by my mashpiah) I am NOT saying that the work we are doing as a whole across frum.finance is without sources or rabbinic backing and I was only referring to bitachon. We have a group of rabonim we go to as shilos come up regularly (and they do!) We also bring up questions to people rather then giving the psak itself so people can ask their own rabonim. frum.finance is guided carefully by Rabonim (I wish more-so honestly, but its hard to find Rabbis that are interested enough in finance to get REALLY involved) and it is an area I think is critical and can always be improved. For the general mission, we are bringing financial resources people already need/use to people for free, so there wasn’t really much of a shiloh there. If someone disagrees on that and has a existential question I should be asking about the organization’s existence, I would happily take the feedback and take it to a Rov!
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b
Agreed, Bitachon, in a certain range, is very subjective and can be discussed here, but practically if you have halachic questions a Rav is essential.
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e
Evidently, not everyone is β€œmaking it”
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w
Yep, I don't think the suggestion is that there will be 100% success in any area of life no matter how much hishtdalus one puts in. The question is only how much is reasonable. I think people who are professional full-time financial advisors may even on occasion have financial struggles. Not sure what this proves. On a related note, I once asked my Rebbi about chord-blood banking (where they salvage stem cells from the umbilical chord and bank it for research or treatment purposes) - if you donate to a chord blood bank you get (or at least used to get) free access to those stem cells in the future if they should be necessary for some rare medical treatment. My Rebbi said if I wanted to donate them for furthering research that's fine but if I am doing it for the insurance policy of future medical treatment that it is not the right thing to do - it's in the category of "ΧΧ•ΧžΧ¨ גל Χ›Χœ Χ¦Χ¨Χ” שלא Χͺבוא", that a person tries to put themselves into a situation in which they are immune to any possible misfortune. The reasons why that is an inappropriate hashkafa are a separate discussion, but just noting that there is such a thing as making yourself "too" safe.
b
I think the point is when going into Rabbonis you kind of know in advance that you're not going to have enough to pay for weddings (unless your wife has a high paying job). I also got this text and I spoke to someone I know was part of it and he said that they raised enough to cover the wedding and an apartment. This isn't the first wedding the Yeshiva has fundraised for and I assume it won't be the last. Maybe that's just the model we have for Rabbonis - we don't necessarily give them high salaries but when they have large financial needs the Talmidim chip in to cover the costs πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ
To me the ironic thing about these fundraisers is that the campaign is usually something like, "He has 10 kids and is just a Rebbe/Rav so we need to chip in to help cover the wedding". It's ironic because the Rebbi/Rav himself (presumably) has the Bitachon to handle the financial strain of having 10 kids and now a wedding which is why he went into Rabbonis in the first place, but the fundraiser is almost saying there's no way anyone could actually practically afford that lifestyle so we have to raise money for them. Again, I'm fine with it if that's the model we set up but it just sounds a little funny to me.
f
Yissachar zevulan. That is the setup
m
I don’t believe that is the model we setup intensionally. I think we have fallen into it and these campaigns are one of the driving forces that has me putting so much time into this project.
w
I agree that we did not a priori plan for this model, although I think that many going into klei kodesh do go in from the beginning with the awareness and understanding that they will be accepting a different standard of living (or marrying a rich girl). I don't think that most of them assume (at least explicitly) that they will require a tzedaka campaign to fund their semachos.
f
Is it possible that this is really the expected model and in fact is the preferred model so that even those who are not able to go into klei kodesh can still be actively involved in strengthening yiddishkeit.
m
Bad take. We should be involved by building them up in times of strength so that they can handle themselves in bad times. No Talmud chochim should have to go around begging and have it look like the Torah chas veshalom wasn't there for them. For the nations of the world should not look at us with pity but look up to us as a light to the nations.
e
@fast-megabyte-10597 What happens when those in Klei Kodesh come to rely on those outside of the Jewish community for financial support via tax evasion and governmental benefits?
Is this a sustainable model?
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f
Tax evasion is obviously not something that should be happening but I have no problem with them getting government benefits (who else should be getting these if not those that are building the future of the world). But really the focus of those in the business world should be to give enough support to those in klei kodesh that they don’t need either of those things.
m
Business people have an obligation to ensure those in klei kodesh are well off. Agreed. Not through post-tragic fundraising though.
f
Here comes the πŸ”₯
e
Interesting. In your view, are non-jews supposed to accept the proposition of limud Hatorah holding up the world?
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m
But schools don't understand. For example, I offered to pay 100 percent of the costs for a cheder to start offering 403bs. The teachers and rebbes weren't interested.
s
Real q: why is a "talmid chacham" who works in klei kodesh entitled to support more than a "talmid chacham" who has another job? If we're supporting talmud Torah that's one thing, but klei kodesh is a job. No?
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m
So we need to improve financial literacy.
We should support all yidden @steep-dog-55906 , Kal vechomer those who are talmidei chochomim. I don't personally think teachers have any extra special thing over normal talmud chochom.
f
@eager-smartphone-39564 supposed to, yes. But obviously much better if we can support our own from within
e
Do you have a source for that?
Def not Sheva Mitzvos
m
Rambam says not to rely on handouts. I'm sure it's not his chiddush so its in other places.
f
@eager-smartphone-39564 while I don’t have a specific source off the top of my head, I think that as yidden we believe that the world was created for the Jewish people and Torah. Therefore the inherent job of anything in the world including non Jews is to support those. Whether or not Joe non Jew would agree with that is not our job. However, (and this is pure conjecture since I’ve never actually had this conversation) I would imagine that a non Jew who is a noahide would definitely support a yid learning Torah.
e
Sorry - lots of holes in that opinion. Very uncompelling.
f
@mysterious-tomato-10057 maybe I’m being to idealistic but I don’t think think they should have to rely on handouts. I think those in the business world should see part of their income as belonging to those that are in klei kodesh
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m
@fast-megabyte-10597 I agree! I hope we can get there.
f
@steep-dog-55906 I think there are definitely sources for shevet Levi getting trumah and maaser because they were supposed to be traveling around and teaching. So while Yissachar was supported by zevulon because they were learning, Levi was supported by the entire Jewish people because they were teaching
s
@fast-megabyte-10597 they also didn't have a nachala. This was also in the time of the beis hamikdash. Do those facts still apply to halacha today?
f
True some of the circumstances are different but I think the mindset should not change
m
Halachically today we still have a chiyuv to support the learning of Torah. I don't think giving to tragedy campaigns counts, but I think we should all be trying to do our best to give to teachers now to help with Pesach
b
What are the parameters to that chiyuv? There's already a chiyuv maaser is there a specific amount for this?
m
As @fast-megabyte-10597 said, I believe it's a general mindset, not a quantity.
It's one of those things that you'll find in halachah that "those who are able to must..."
f
Or in other words when you are working Hashem gives you a certain amount of money. Part of that money is for the chiyuv of supporting your family and part of that money was given to you to hold onto for others that need it like talmidei chachomim, teachers, kiruv organizations, etc. Determining what those portions are is up to each person. Can you go on your third Florida vacation when Yaakov the melamed needs to pay his mortgage? Maybe, yes if that’s what your wife needs for her mental health or maybe Hashem gave you Yaakov the melameds mortgage money to hold onto until he needs it.
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m
Unpopular opinion, tuition should go up 50 percent so we can pay teachers better and raise the overall standards of education across the community.
f
And the same goes for your time. Maybe Hashem gave you a few extra hours a month to hold onto for Berel the Talmud chochom to be able to help him get his finances in order by starting an organization called frum finance 😁
e
I think we are losing the thread. Let's discuss the practical sustainability of such an arrangement which relies on more than just wealthy nursing home admins and real estate moguls.
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b
Right but there are over 7k people learning in lakewood. Who says they should all be learning? Shevet Levi was set and quantifiable. Today there's no restrictions to learning full time. Also, the more money poured into it the more people will go into learning and learn for longer. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing but it's hard to tell people they have a chiyuv to support something they may not agree to
e
Because I am being asked to help and I haven't gone on a vacation for more than a day in 7 years
Medicaid is being asked to give
Welfare is being asked to give
The IRS is being forced to give
Where is the M'kor for this?
n
But schools don't understand. For example, I offered to pay 100 percent of the costs for a cheder to start offering 403bs. The teachers and rebbes weren't interested.
Early in our marriage, my wife worked for a Jewish company with 100+ employees. I asked why there was no 401k. I was told that the employees were surveyed as to who would join and 3 people said they would πŸ€¦β€β™‚οΈ
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b
@eager-smartphone-39564 ya, I guess bringing it back to the bitachon question, is it bitachon to go into klei kodesh believing everything will work out or are they just headed for a financial disaster?
Or maybe as @mysterious-tomato-10057 says, they just need to be more financially literate πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ
f
I would agree with you if someone was sitting on a street corner doing nothing but if someone is volunteering for an important public service why shouldn’t Medicaid, welfare, and the irs (if treated honestly) support those people.
Of course if you don’t consider learning Torah and teaching to be an important public service then really we are coming from such a different perspective that we would not be able to agree
e
I do value it, but I don’t see why we should expect Non Jews to
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m
@nutritious-raincoat-28876 that was exactly the issue. They surveyed the teachers and no one wanted a 403b. I literally offered to pay all the plan fees. But alas, nothing.
e
And to answer your question the reason why it shouldn’t support these people is because of the reputation we will hold in society
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m
Our talmudei chochomim should not be relying on welfare. We need to do better as a community paying our teachers.
f
While I don’t expect the average non Jew to I also know that Medicaid and welfare are being given to lots of people sitting on street corners so it doesn’t bother me that it should be given to yidden who need it
e
So we should be lumped among the homeless and impoverished
Jews and low-class citizens
Seems to bode well for us
f
As I said before and @mysterious-tomato-10057 just mentioned it would for sure be better if we supported our own from within
e
But we don’t
Not enough anyways
So let’s talk Tachlis
f
Totally agree
e
And not circle back to the theoretical
b
Ya I don't like the comparisons to homeless people. I think if someone needs welfare they shouldn't feel bad but to do it lchatchilah is hard to swallow
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m
So how do we better support them? My best idea was financial education (as evident by the work I'm doing). Is there another way I can help these people that is better optimization of my time?
Tachlis
f
Where the theoretical is important is when we see ourselves as welfare for low life talmidei chachomim
m
I was raised being told welfare programs were made for goyim only πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ
f
@mysterious-tomato-10057 you’re right it was. When the rebbe told senator Chisholm (I think that was her name) to use her new position on the agriculture committee to give surplus food to hungry non Jewish children which helped set up wic and food stamps
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m
My non frum parents gave me certain images about Jews that are so deeply ingrained. Jews can't use welfare programs and Jews can't go to bars and drink while we watch the game.
f
Not sure how many people here are going to agree with that second one 😁
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e
Not me
m
At least they were half right.
@eager-smartphone-39564 tachlis. What do we do? What can we practically do? I just met with the frum finance board last night discussing our next project to invest in. Do you or anyone else in this thread see how we can best actually make a difference here? Should we invest in more free resources? Offer more services? Start free online courses? Lots of ideas... Hire a full time accountant to help people with their taxes for free? Idk anything is fair game.
e
I think that the average Yeshiva-educated Jew thinks about uncertainty in very different way than someone who majored in data analytics in college. I think they need to be taught about distributions, marginal costs, and opportunity costs. Then they can appreciate financial planning.
m
Sounds like you agree one on one education is the main thing I can do.
s
It would be nice if you had something that could turn people into advocates, and allow them to teach what they've learned to others as well
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m
I have been working on exactly that! I'm still formalizing it but if you are interested DM me.
b
Not to drag this back into the theoretical but if people think (long term) financial planning is a lack of bitachon you may have to contend with that if you're trying to help people who think that.
m
exactly why I think @acceptable-angle-23240 started this thread.
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n
It would be nice if you had something that could turn people into advocates, and allow them to teach what they've learned to others as well
Sarei alafim, sarei meah...
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w
I missed too much of this conversation as it was happening to reply to very much now, but just one thing @steep-dog-55906
Do those facts still apply to halacha today?
The Rambam says yes, at the end of hilchos terumos uma'asros.
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b
I believe it's only drabanan today, not sure if that changes anything halachically. Maybe we're more makil in certain cases?
m
only derabanan
I don’t think I like that phrase. IT’S DERABANAN!! is preferred. We should not think lightly of it.
w
Sorry, what are we discussing being DERABANAN/only derabanan?
m
I think there are definitely sources for shevet Levi getting trumah and maaser because they were supposed to be traveling around and teaching. So while Yissachar was supported by zevulon because they were learning, Levi was supported by the entire Jewish people because they were teaching
from @fast-megabyte-10597 i think
w
so we are discussing if it is Χ“Χ¨Χ‘Χ ΧŸ for Shevet Levi to get maaser bzman hazeh? Or if it is Χ“Χ¨Χ‘Χ ΧŸ for Levi / teachers to be supported by klal yisroel? I'm not even sure what the latter would mean.
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m
Idk what @broad-australia-98095 was referring to anymore. I’ll wait for him to chime in
w
No I think we should continue to wildly hypothesize, and then proceed to vehemently and disdainfully argue with what we assume he is saying. πŸ˜‰
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b
https://frumfinance.slack.com/archives/C04E9F1HAJK/p1677645644389009?thread_ts=1676828967.776349&cid=C04E9F1HAJK Was just referring to this, which I thought was talking about Trumah and Maaser. I thought ITS DRABANAN!!!! today but I can try double check or someone else can fact check me.
I repented by adding more exclamation marks
w
No, it's not referring to maaser (and certainly not to terumah, since levi'im don't get terumah and kohanim are all tomeh). It's referring to being supported by the klal, if one chooses to dedicate themselves to Torah.
s
But is a "klei kodesh" job within that same geder?
w
I think this discussion is relevant to both "official" klei kodesh jobs and to Kollel, and to the latter I think it more easily applies. I don't think that everyone in Kollel today has really reached the threshold of what the Rambam is describing, but there are definitely some who do. In terms of klei kodesh, I think that there are multiple components to the answer. I think that in principle yes they would certainly qualify, if they are forgoing the possibility of a more lucrative occupation to educate tinokos shel beis rabban. In terms of their salary, I think that the salary that is afforded to klei kodesh could rightly be considered a part of that which the tzibbur would support them (in the overwhelming cases where they are grossly underpaid). I also think it bears noting that in as much as they get paid, and klei kodesh is a "job", it's also a necessity for Klal Yisroel to have mechanchim. We don't need doctors, lawyers, or software developers - we just need people with healthy parnassah. But the positions of marbitzei Torah are in essence positions that serve the tzibbur. So yes I do think that a klei kodesh position does deserve precedence in consideration for support.
t
Btw... I'm gonna take heat for this, but I'm not sure rebbeim are all so underpaid πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ. When you factor in the tuition discounts they get, and the fact that they are off all summer (which allows many to get jobs in camp, which saves boatloads of money, besides for paying pretty well) the effective value of their salary can be equivalent to a very solid income
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morahs on the other hand.... I don't understand why there is such a disparity in their treatment
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b
I actually agree. Everyone says rebbeim are underpaid but to me the reality is it's supply and demand. The bar to being a rebbe is not very high so it makes sense they make less πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ. And as you said, there are benefits working people don't get
s
I also wonder where the delineation is between "we need these people to be rebbeim" and "I want to be a rebbe" is, in terms of obligation of support. If we had very few people going into chinuch, then it's one thing to say that each of them is filling a need. Is that the case of the market today? Fwiw I don't know any unemployed rebbeim, but similar to what @broad-australia-98095 is saying, are there many people who can be rebbeim, and so each individual who decides to be a rebbe because the klal needs them needs to evaluate if they're really /needed/ in order to qualify for the halachic obligation of support?
w
I'm not sure I fully grasp your question or query, but as someone who is involved in the administration of a school, it has become practically impossible to find Rebbe's or Morah's (even lousy ones)!
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c
It's referring to being supported by the klal, if one chooses to dedicate themselves to Torah.
Would it even apply when such a large percentage of the population does so? Or is it the responsibility of the community to do so for the small number of people that it used to be. Also, to what level is support required to be given? 2 cars and a 2.5k sq ft house? Or maybe its a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom ranch and a single car thats 15 years old.
w
@steep-dog-55906 this is for multiple reasons not only financial (but probably mitigated to an extent if it was more viable). This is also not just a frum or Jewish problem.
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In the #C04F2S0H63B channel we can discuss more🀣
m
Just a thought, Shouldn't teachers be viewed /respected and paid as therapists? Aren't the teachers the ones who gives the emotional and academic future for the person? Why is the bar not high as therapists? Unfortunately it happens that teachers abuse children indirectly in ways they can't get cought (emotionally like not giving attention to a child that needs and many more examples that can affect the long term life of the person, and sometimes even sexually). Shouldn't the bar be higher? Shouldn't the school do a psych test for teachers before they're hired, they are the ones who will be changing the children's lives? (For the positive and negative)
b
@wooden-belgium-47527 I'm actually interested in hearing about that. I've been hearing that lately that it's becoming very hard to find Rebbeim. In the simple model of supply and demand that would make sense - if they're not getting paid enough less people will pursue being a Rebbe. That would theoretically force us to pay them more, which in turn could lead to an influx of Rebbeim. I'm curious to hear from someone who actually deals with it practically.
@melodic-minister-44857 Maybe that could work but I would think the bar would be very unclear. Therapists get degrees/licenses which are a very clear marker - you have to achieve that level to be a therapist. And if they're not good then people won't go to them (hopefully). I'm not sure there's a way to give such a bar to potential Rebbeim but @wooden-belgium-47527 could chime in on that. Or continue in the chinuch channel.
w
Would it even apply when such a large percentage of the population does so?
Shevet Levi is 1/12th of klal yisroel. Or at least 4%, if you just go by the population in the midbar. The # of people being fully supported (long term) is nowhere even close to that. So, yes, it applies to a "large" percentage.
b
@witty-engineer-80805 are they at least 4% of frum people? I'm not saying we should or shouldn't be picking up the slack of non-frum people but if all the millions of Jews in the world were donating then it would be an easier burden I would think.
w
I also wonder where the delineation is between "we need these people to be rebbeim" and "I want to be a rebbe" is, in terms of obligation of support.
The Rambam:
Χ•ΧœΧ Χ©Χ‘Χ˜ ΧœΧ•Χ™ Χ‘ΧœΧ‘Χ“ אלא Χ›Χœ איש ואיש ΧžΧ›Χœ באי Χ”Χ’Χ•ΧœΧ אשר Χ Χ“Χ‘Χ” Χ¨Χ•Χ—Χ• אוΧͺΧ• Χ•Χ”Χ‘Χ™Χ Χ• ΧžΧ“Χ’Χ• ΧœΧ”Χ‘Χ“Χœ ΧœΧ’ΧžΧ•Χ“ ΧœΧ€Χ Χ™ Χ™Χ™ לשרΧͺΧ• Χ•ΧœΧ’Χ•Χ‘Χ“Χ•
(It's in hilchos shimtta, not maaser, apologies for the previous mis-citation). So that has nothing to do with the need for them - it's their passion to do it which allows them to be included in that status. I think the need for them is just a justification of why we should feel more obligated to ensure it is a viable profession.
No, they are not 4% of frum people. They aren't even 4% of ultra-ultra-super-frum-yeshivish-black-hat orthodox people.
Make a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation of people over age ... 25 who are in full-time learning. Let me know if you reach 50k.
b
You're referring specifically to people who learn forever or people learning in kollel now?
w
I'm referring to people who stay in kollel long term, as opposed to leaving as soon as financial obligations require it.
Meaning, excluding people who learn for the first few (1-5) years after getting married
b
Right but if we also need to support people who are learning for the next 5-10 years it makes it harder to support the people who are life learners
We don't give them less just because they're going to work after 10+ years of learning
s
Thanks @witty-engineer-80805! Good source. So what you're saying the Rambam holds that everyone who feels inclined to, should take a job in chinuch or other klei kodesh, or stay in learning, and expect to be supported by others who bH are earning enough to support them?
w
I would argue that the majority of those who learn 3-5 do not get significant communal support
it is mostly parental
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s
That's news to me, I haven't personally learned the Rambam but from what I've heard, most people quote the Rambam as the primary source of "don't rely on the community for support"
b
Ok that could be
w
You can pick and choose your Rambams for many things.
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I can tell you to sleep 8 hours a night, and to stay up all night learning, and I've got Rambams for both.
b
And only work 4 hours a day lol
a
I don't think that Rambam is saying you should be expected to be supported by others.
b
I agree. I don't think the current kollel model is fit into the Rambam
w
@acceptable-angle-23240 I agree. But he is saying you can be like Shevet Levi, who was supported by others.
And, I'll repeat (I think I said it previously) that I don't believe that most of those going into chinuch go in with the a priori assumption that they will be featured in a charidy campaign some day.
b
Just because someone wants to be Shevet levi doesn't mean everyone is obligated to support them
Agreed
Which leads back to the original question, is it proper Bitachon to do that?
w
@melodic-minister-44857 @broad-australia-98095 happy to continue the discussion in a different slack but seems like that part of the conversation has moved on. Feel free to PM.
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b
Or one of the questions that came up, not sure if it was @acceptable-angle-23240 original question
a
He is stating the purpose of Shevet Levi, and anyone can join that purpose (perhaps by living a life of ascetism). It does not give them automatic benefits that shevet levi had.
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w
That's what I meant when I said I don't think they can have the expectation or demand that they be supported, but they can choose a lifestyle which is like that of Shevet Levi, and if they end up being supported by the tzibbur, that is how Shevet Levi functioned as well.
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I don't think the Rambam means to, or needs to, tell people that they can be really frum and live low maintenance.
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As an aside, I once stumbled upon a Tashbeitz who said something along the lines of "and if you'll be bothered that it's an unsustainable model for anyone who wants to be a Shevet Levi type of person and be supported by the tzibbur, don't worry, it will never happen that there will be so many of them that it is unsustainable. It's not an easy life"
(Which is why above I said that I don't think everyone in Kollel qualifies. If you have lunch at home and take a nap on your 2 hour lunch break, and sometimes show up to night seder where you do shnayim mikrah, I don't think you've made the cut)
b
Ya I think if the lines are clearly delineated that's fair. I.e. if it's clear most money is raised for pure long term learners and anyone who is more short term is getting very little charity that's fair. I just never got the sense that the lines were so clear. I know most big kollels don't give much for the first few years but after that I don't know what the lines are. But what you're saying makes sense.
w
I know that in Ner Israel's Kollel, you need to be in yeshiva a certain amount of time to qualify at all, and it increases at certain stages (you get a "raise" after 2 years, for example). I know that in Lakewood, you only get a stipend after a certain amount of time, and that if you are a rosh chabura with 20 people "signed up" for your chabura you get an increased stipend - I don't know beyond that how their system works.
I will also say that I had a private conversation with an adam gadol whose name I will not share, in which I asked him why it is that avreichim who are not good in learning are getting stipends - why are we supporting the perpetuation of people without a future in learning to stay in Kollel? And he responded that I was right in principle, really we shouldn't, but the yeshiva system is a victim of its own success. Once upon a time you were a nebuch if you were "just" learning. We B"H were successful in raising the appreciation of talmud Torah so that now it is a davar choshuv to stay in learning. But now, if you tell a guy "you're not cut out for the beis medrash, go get a job" it's retzicha. So you try to encourage him in more subtle ways but you can't tell him "you don't make the cut to get paid". That's a bit of a scary thought.
b
Ya but at least it's honest. I'm fine with a certain amount of being "victims of our own success", I think every good thing has a downside. The question to me is, how much is worth it? Trying to tie it back to the question of is this model sustainable?
c
Probably way off topic. But considering that if you don't learn in kollel its harder to get your kids into schools (at least in lakewood, to the point where there was a very large school that tried multiple times to stop taking kids whose parents were working). I would say we've gone way past victims of our own success.
b
Definitely agree with that. Not to mention shidduchim. Whole 'nother can of worms lol.
w
There are always extremists in every camp and we shouldn't try to justify them, but they don't invalidate the principle.
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t
@witty-engineer-80805 no they don't invalidate a principle, but they do make a course correction more urgent
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t
In Chabad there isn't an idea of life long kollel. Most/many men learn for about a year after they get married, but then they do something else - teaching, Chabad house, regular job, .... I personally am not excited about supporting someone to learn full time. I think that the job of yidden today is to be involved in the world. I am more than happy to support rebbeim teaching in schools or running Chabad houses. I think that our teachers have an important role and we should pay for that. Unfortunately, it's hard because there's not that much money in the community. If others want a yissachar-zevulan partnership, that's great, but that's not where my money is going.
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w
A brief Google search led me to this - https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/1919555/jewish/Is-Kollel-Study-the-Proper-Path.htm. From the Lubavitcher Rebbe in 1973. He writes that for some Jews full time Torah study is the right thing, and seems to only advise the correspondent against joining a Kollel because of his current successful involvement in Chinuch. Has Chabad had a change of opinion about this nowadays?
t
I don't find the letter that compelling. In the first paragraph, he states that there are other needs today. Later, he mentions that some Jews learn full time. He may be referring to non-lubavitchers. I'm not aware of him encouraging anyone, let alone one of his chassidim, to learn full time. I've heard countless stories of him pushing people out of yeshiva, both for shluchos and for lay jobs.
w
The letter is pretty clear that "all options can be considered" if one is at the correct point in life, and the specific option being discussed was full time learning. It seems stretching it to interpret it differently, but if you're set on one approach 🀷
m
I don't know enough to comment on the letter specifically or give specific examples, but I can say that the question "has chabad had a change of opinion" is an invalid question. Even if members of chabad started acting differently than the Rebbe wanted chabad to act, that would only make them not following the derech of chabad. In other words, the Rebbe decides what is chabad πŸ˜€ not the chassidim. I've never heard a story of the Rebbe telling anyone to learn full time personally. But I'm not a proof of anything πŸ˜‚
t
Three thoughts: The letter was written to one person to answer one question, so I'm not sure how much we should read into it. Are the other comments meant to be respectful and find common ground or are they meant endorse something. I don't think it's a slam dunk. The letter's first paragraph says: "Nevertheless, there can be a situation where other things take precedence over it. I have in mind, particularly, the situation of our present-day Jewish youth, a situation which is that of Pikuach Nefesh". This is what I stated earlier, today there are more pressing concerns. Later it says "There are Jews whose main task is to study Torah". This is what you are referencing. He might mean that, even today, it's important for some Jews to learn full time as you suggest. If that's the case, he might think that there are leaders and communities that do this already and he has a different mission in mind for his chassidim. If this is the case, my tzedakah will go to support his initiatives.
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