I recently listened to this ChooseFI podcast about Dave Ramsey and where the hosts recommend diverging from his recommendations. I found it hysterical that the hosts were polite in disagreeing with him, in contrast some on this Slack group who do not hold back their 🔥🔥🔥 It's a good listen either way, I recommend it

Podcast hosts generally can't argue too much with their guests or they'll never get people to go on. Its a bit of an issue since people often don't get enough pushback. People on this group have no such reservations 🙂

@curved-toothbrush-84425 lol when they quoted Ramsey as saying to pay off debt before even contributing to a 401k just to get the employer match, they politely said it was the dumbest advice they've ever heard. It was definitely a struggle for them to put him in a good light on that one 🤣🤣🤣

the problem is he is arguing from a religious perspective, not a mathematical one. Just like we would say to give maiser before giving to a 401k.

O right I forgot he ties his approach to religion

he believes (and i see where he gets it) that debt is intrinsically evil and the fact that he allows a 15 year mortgage even is very painful for him.

I don't think its as much as of a religious argument as it is a psychological one. He has the $1k emergency fund as step 1 not because you should have an emergency fund at all. Mathematically if you have credit card debt your emergency fund should be at 0. Its because when people did have something happen and had to reuse their credit card to pay it off they "fell off the wagon". Its also why he suggests the snowball method for paying off debt as opposed to the mathematically superior avalanche method. Psychologically it gives you little wins that help you stay on track. Saying you should do the avalanche because you end up with more money is the equivalent of saying you lose weight by only eating 1,200 calories per day and 1,600 is too much. It may be true, but it won't help if the person doesn't stick to the plan. He speaks to people who have a problem with debt, and those people need to change their entire mindset. They need to eliminate debt as a possibility in the same way an alcoholic can't touch alcohol at all. For them saving in a 401k isn't beneficial even if its the optimal move because they won't stick with it anyway, will rack up debt, and then end up cashing out the 401k to pay it off.

True, he does go with the psychologically better approach, not the mathematical one.

He has spoken about it on multiple occasions that his entire anti-debt perspective is religious, not rational.

religion doesn't answer why he would recommend a $1k emergency fund or doing the snowball instead of the avalanche which gets you out of debt slower.

I'm not talking about that advice. Again, I am talking about why he believes debt is bad, not all of his advice.

Ah ok could be

Agreed, but I don't think we take an extreme position, just a negative one.

He does accept that debt is needed for a home. So I wonder how he rationalizes that.

worse than debt in Torah is gifts or other handouts

Lol strong principles right there

It genuinely looked like the fact that he allows a 15 year mortgage causes him pain

I guess the problem with the religious argument against debt is that cheap debt probably never existed historically.

Or that Torah clearly is fine with borrowing money to start a business...

Nvm its in Mishlei

I don't see why the psychology of his approach is against the Torah. If someone is truly drowning in debt and it's ruining his life and Ramsey's approach helps that person I don't see what's wrong with that.

They should use a similar no-debt approach that doesn't involve listening to someone that is constantly quoting the bible. Just like we can't use eastern medicines or meditations that were started off from idolatry, I would want to look at Jewish versions of these ideas as opposed to going to Ramsey.

I agree if there's an alternative but the advantage of Ramsey is his name. It's like hearing advice from a highly respected person - sometimes it's not what they say but the person saying it that makes the difference. If someone of Ramsey's stature is proposing a way for people to get out of the landslide of debt then it's gives more hope and determination. It cuts both ways obviously - they're more prone to follow his bad advice as well.

frum.finance provides lots of no-debt resources and many of our clients are on no-debt no-credit plans

I was going to say, Iy"h FF will grow to the stature of Ramsey and carry that kind of weight

obviously if its life saving advice for people they can go to non jewish sources, but in the meantime, use one of our no debt plans

I agree with you. I would definitely refer people I know to FF, not Ramsey.

I was discussing prioritization, not when you should give maiser on 401k contributions. I am giving maiser on withdrawal and not contribution personally. My point was that if you had to pick either maiser or 401k, we would give tzedaka

Ok I see, got it.

I watched many shows of Ramsey. To me it seems that his extreme anti debt opinion is based on his personal journey. He cites the bible to protect himself from disagreement and make his mission spiritual. As להבדיל when you prepare a speech you will find the weekly parsha as a base to prove your points. A lot of his quotes are from tanach. If someone wants to start such a channel he will have plenty of sources to claim that debt is a bad thing in the eyes of the Torah. Explaining that the purpose of שמיטה is to make everyone debt free etc.