Linux Age Verification Legislation
# show-and-tell
h
woah this is wild
I tend to be more skeptical of Lunduke, but this is huge
> “Operating system provider” means a person or entity that develops, licenses, or controls the operating system software on a computer, mobile device, or any other general purpose computing device. @early-whale-57281
So technically anyone who forks nixpkgs is an operating system provider. 😂
e
That's what I was suspicious of. The scope of this legislature is so far beyond what it would entail if macOS or Windows did it. The way I'm reading it, servers should also be included in this. Maybe even platforms like Raspberry Pi and Arduino, but "general purpose" might be too nebulous a term to really pin all this down with
Or rather, nebulous enough to provide an escape hatch
j
I summarized the points of the legislation on the NixOS discourse posting: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/compliance-with-u-s-age-verification-laws/75791/16?u=heywoodlh
And also an opinion piece by me: https://heywoodlh.io/us-age-verification-laws/
I found the proposed solution on the Ubuntu Mailing list interesting for understanding what this might look like in implementation: > For this reason, I'd like to propose a "hybrid" approach; introduce a new standard D-Bus interface,
org.freedesktop.AgeVerification1
, that can be implemented by arbitrary applications as a distro sees fit. AccountsService could implement this API so that newer versions of distros will get the relevant features for free, while distros with an AccountsService too old to contain the feature can implement it themselves as a stop-gap solution. With major players like Canonical and Red Hat maintaining much of the Linux ecosystem, I don't see a way around this indirectly impacting all Linux users in some way.
e
Yeah I don't think there's any world where those two, and perhaps others, don't comply with these laws. But I'd also be surprised if anything more than a "check the box" effort is made with most people involved. From what I've read, there's not really any wording around requiring an accurate age, or for anything more than a "self-attestation"-esque implementation. I think this legislation will act as a springboard for whatever the next effort is -- whether that be something more dramatic like requiring that OSes upload user data -- or something else that's more like a stepping stone.
j
I think that it'll be an enforcement point for hardware vendors+their operating systems and browsers
e
The effort to cloudify compute is going strong.
j
Not sure I follow
e
Well, Bezos and all of those guys seem pretty dead-set on moving as much user compute as they can to the cloud. This seems like it could be used to aid that effort in the long-term. At the very least it'll be used for advertisers and stuff.
I don't know, maybe I'm paranoid and realistically desktop Linux users are such a small subset of users that maybe they don't care at all and we're just collateral damage, but identifying such users could be deliberate.
j
The impression I get is that it's mostly targeting mobile operating systems. I think the genuine hope of Colorado/California legislators is to protect children from inappropriate content. Just, it's a stupid, ineffective and over-reaching way to do it.
And, I believe that for sure approximate age data is going to be abused by applications eager to profit off of user data
e
At this point I don't even give any credence to "protect the children" because it's been abused so much by ill-intended laws as well. I hope that it is a genuine effort as well, and there certainly are legitimate concerns around children using the Internet.
j
i.e. The scenario I'm thinking of is if Google bakes age verification into Chrome, they'd be able to determine: 1. You're on Linux 2. You're approximately 13-16 years old 3. You just tried to visit 4. Chrome shares the approximate age of the user with so they can reject the traffic 5. Now knows your public IP address (and relative location of that IP), your operating system and your approximate demographic That's just so much information overlap that is so creepy. It's already too creepy, we don't need more.
e
lol I just realized that the US Census Bureau could be privatized.
b
Is this going to be something that creeps into other Ubuntu-based distros like Mint?
j
Since Ubuntu-based distros often use their own installers, I suspect it won't be enforced unless a distro chooses it -- but all the scaffolding should be there
Honestly, I would be surprised if the Ubuntu derivatives (besides Elementary OS) followed Canonical's lead. Additionally, I doubt there will be any instances of this being enforced anywhere once the law is in effect because it's just not possible to scale with open source distributions
h
yeah very true
free desktop is big but they can't enforce that implementation with the current state of things
j
Yeah, that being said, there's no way this won't ripple into every Linux distribution somehow -- but it shouldn't "eliminate privacy" for Linux distributions
Would recommend contacting your representative to request NOT implementing a bill regarding age verification in operating systems. This site makes it pretty easy: https://contactrep.org/ And also includes the bills in question in CO, CA, NY
Found out through Ageless Linux's state tracker that Utah will be "enforcing" app store age verification in May: https://agelesslinux.org/map.html
I've been reconsidering my position on systemd implementing an age field in userdb or it being implemented in dbus to support distributions that are going to comply with age verification laws. At first, I thought it was generally bad -- but as I've been thinking about it, it feels like the most reasonable place to implement it -- instead of each distribution implementing their own bespoke solution to track age. This is especially a problem in an enterprise -- especially education -- where I personally don't think kids should be accessing NFSW content (obviously, that's relative) and if Linux has no enterprise controls around that, it's a less desirable platform in places like education or highly regulated enterprises. Which, I think is a big downside. While I am against the current legislation's inability to effectively empower the guardian's of children and instead empower corporations, I am not necessarily against parents or corporations implementing restrictions for children/employees where they deem necessary -- and tracking age as a data point seems like a good starting point (although, I am totally against sharing it with developers/corporations who will certainly harvest/abuse that data). Additionally, I think the approach of systemd putting it in userdb is ideal because then you have to opt-in by using userdb. i.e. on NixOS, I just won't be impacted by their proposed changes and my privacy won't be infringed upon. So again, I would pose the question, if systemd or dbus don't implement opt-in scaffolding for age verification, would it really be better for distributions to implement their own bespoke solution? And would it really be better to have NO safety controls in an enterprise or regulated environment while on Linux? Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this, if you agree/disagree.
Sorry for the long message ^ 😬 I bolded the part that I would like feedback about
I think the inability to regulate anything on a Linux workstation is a big reason it's often not a choice for workstations in an enterprise. It's REALLY hard to ensure any sort of compliance and desktop security on Linux.
b
I have a lot of thoughts on this… but I have a lot of questions with it too. It feels a lot more multifaceted than I think it looks like at a glance. I think having a general issue of open access to content IS an issue that needs to be addressed, but it feels like the approaches are currently being made by individuals who have little-to-no understanding of what age-verification implementation actually means. Does anyone know if government officials are consulting with individuals with more expertise on OS level development and distribution?
h
yeah, it's definitely not a simple issue
part of the problem is that I think pushing against the laws is better rather than moving the laws in a good direction
because they are not on good grounding to begin with
it is fundamentally about control and breach of privacy, not protecting individuals
I haven't looked much into the advising on hearings, but I imagine those that provide OS or privacy expertise are getting washed out by lobbyists or the like
b
I feel like some locations do have good intentions with the idea, but restricting access doesn’t REALLY restrict access. Those who are determined to break the law WILL regardless. It feels (to me) like less of an attempt to regulate content and/or inappropriate content and more like a, “well the parents aren’t doing their job so let’s do it for them” type thing. It’s a difficult spot because restricting the content is hard to do, but I think some of the approaches that have been made in terms of forcing age-verification on explicit websites through a signup is a better approach than making everyone input info to a separate company/database when it’s as simple as logging into a parental account. It’s like adding ratings to movies vs making everyone show their drivers license regardless of the movie they want to watch.
Of course, in this scenario it’s more like letting the theater make a copy of your license and letting whatever the company who files the copies do whatever they want with it (sell it, horde it, leak it on accident, make excuses when someone breaks into the filing cabinet)
Who’s supposed to be in charge of maintaining the database of age-verification info anyway? Is that the state, or are they utilizing third-party companies?
h
the individual companies are, which is another huge part of the issue
b
Yeah. I heard of the discord leaks and that was part of why the pushback was so huge.
h
Utah's current legislation on adult content is that the websites are in charge of the verification process. the companies that have the infrastructure and security team to pull off something like that are the only ones being enforced, which is bad
we quite literally have a record if why this kind if legislation is bad, which is why the kind of stuff being pushed is so silly
b
What a mess…
h
we may need to change our name to the Central Utah Privacy Conspiracy Posting Group
b
Truth
h
wait that is still just a linux user group lol
j
First, didn't realize there was an ageless systemd fork. Second, someone packaged it for NixOS: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/compliance-with-u-s-age-verification-laws/75791/135