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# general
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j
Secondary source in wikipedia is for example, a newspaper article, maybe a such link will be sufficient https://www.infoworld.com/article/3379120/apache-kafka-vs-apache-pulsar-how-to-choose.html
k
@Jerome B thank you for the suggestion. I asked about this specific article. Here is the answer:
It’s not good for establishing notability. It’s a comparison between two products and describes their features, it does not provide coverage indicating what makes it notable.. Blogs(which you refer to) are not generally considered reliable sources as they usually lack editorial control and fact checking. 331dot (talk) 14:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
d
Would community documentation, e.g., the Apache Pulsar website itself, be an acceptable option for a secondary source?
k
Would community documentation, e.g., the Apache Pulsar website itself, be an acceptable option for a secondary source?
No, it’s not.
From the latest discussion:
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1. Not independent or significant coverage.

2. Not independent. "At the time we started"

3. Not independent or significant coverage.

4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 14, and 16. Those sources are okay but they are kind of just random websites. There isn't really any broader newspaper or magazine coverage of this.

6 and 17. I'm not sure specialist how-to books count towards significant coverage.

7. I doubt Powerpoints count towards significant coverage.

8. Interview, not really fully independent.

12. Interview, not fully independent.

13. Company website, not independent.

15. I'm not sure that pdf essay counts towards significant coverage.

Honestly, this is borderline but I'm not sure if it's enough to support a stand-alone Wikipedia article. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 15:10, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Regarding "this is borderline". If from start the moderators' feedback would contain at least a short per/source review as you provided, it would be smoother and much faster. Visortelle (talk) 15:42, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for the more specific answer.
1. It's not a source, but rather a metadata. It has been added using Wikidata which has a special field for articles about software projects whose source is publicly available. How can it be viewed as a source? <https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1324>
3. Same - metadata about this kind of projects.
4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 14, and 16. - should I keep them?
6 and 17 (books) - they cover the subject quite well. The documentation on the official site of course is more up-to-date, but both books have a good introduction into the problems that Pulsar intended to solve, it's history, it's architecture.
The publisher is O'Reilly Media. It's a reputable publisher with editor team.
Rest points: Apache Pulsar isn't a scientific research project. It doesn't imply writing scientific papers, same as many other software projects which have articles on the Wikipedia.
Also its unlikely New York Times, Washington Post, or any other magazine will publish anything about it.
Both books contain all the little amount of information mentioned in this article. Visortelle (talk) 15:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't saying you should remove those sources. I was just evaluating them on whether they contributed towards notability. You can still use sources that don't count towards notability as references for other facts. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 15:48, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
j
Still trying to help : About the open sourcing by yahoo and notoriety, this one look nice : https://www.datanami.com/2016/09/07/yahoos-new-pulsar-kafka-competitor/ And this one too: "Apache Pulsar has been recognized by the Apache Software Foundation as a Top 5 Project based on engagement." "More than140 contributors from the community submitted approximately 1,500 commits for feature enhancements and bug fixes in the 3.0 release." Source : https://adtmag.com/articles/2023/05/24/first-lts-for-pulsar.aspx
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k
Continuing the discussion. Maybe I just had bad luck with the moderators.
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As I believe I've said previously, it is usually not a good idea to cite other articles in comparison to yours, as they could have problems that you are unaware of. In this case, the ones you are citing indeed have the same problems as your draft. If you want to use other articles as a model, use those classified as good articles. 331dot (talk) 08:42, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
I don't understand why your OSE argument is valid. I would understand it if there would be one, two, three articles on similar topics. But there are tens of such articles on very similar subjects. I can't find any good article. Can you?
Its completely unfair in relation to the project. People who unlikely can understand and evaluate any info written in the sources, trying to make some conclusions.
I scanned the "good articles" list yesterday and didn't find anything similar to the kind of software I'm talking about.
I looked for an open-source project that is:
Relatively new - not 30 years old something used by everyone, or something that is already dead and notable only as a historical fact.
Not something super-popular that runs on a lot of consumer-market devices, but rather a project used by professional engineers, that "normal people" wouldn't talk about.
By the way, Wikipedia itself uses this kind of software (Kafka): <https://grafana.wikimedia.org/d/O_OXJyTVk/home-w-wiki-status?orgId=1&refresh=30s&search=open&tag=kafka>
I removed most of the content of the original article, including what has been evaluated as promotional in first edits.
Now the draft contain only very short list of facts.
I suppose, the article content can be added by others Pulsar community members over time.
All these facts are mentioned in the referenced books by very reputable publisher.
Isn't it's enough?
Maybe Wikipedia or any of it's moderators personally interested in not adding this specific project? I can't find any other explanation. Visortelle (talk) 09:15, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
I’m tired of this ineffective ping-pong with Wiki moderators. Perhaps someone else can try creating a Wikipedia article on Apache Pulsar. If not, I’ll try in a month or two with a new account, because this one is already some kind of banned because volunteering for Apache Foundation by contributing to a github/apache/pulsar-site is a “conflict of interest”. One of the moderators told me that Wikipedia is “by lay people for lay people”, but I unlikely can imagine that the aunty from next door would write an article about Pulsar.
j
Is there a link to the conversion you had with moderators ?
k
Can’t find how to share a proper link. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&amp;action=edit&amp;section=119 Click “Show preview” button.
Continuing this strange conversation:
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You answered only about my referencing to other projects but didn't answer anything about the book's reliability.
Also didn't answer anything about the Pulsar notability. Visortelle (talk) 10:28, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Maybe those tens of articles should not exist. I don't know, I haven't examined every one or its sources. It's possible that this class of software does not merit Wikipedia articles because it lacks the appropriate sources. It is true that sourcing and verification requirements mean that some topic areas are underserved, but these policies are necessary. Articles do not just summarize facts- they should summarize what is said about a topic and what makes it notable. 331dot (talk) 10:32, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Do these articles contributes to notability:
<https://thenewstack.io/13-reasons-why-enterprises-should-use-apache-pulsar/#:~:text=Apache%20Pulsar%20has%20a%20tiered,resources%20for%20different%20data%20types>
<https://zendesk.engineering/evaluating-apache-pulsar-92e6ed3fc792>
<https://www.clouddatainsights.com/apache-pulsar-core-technology-for-streaming-applications/>
Visortelle (talk) 10:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
It could also be that the class of software as a whole might merit an article, but not individual software programs. 331dot (talk) 10:33, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Do you mean - instead of writing an article for each program, write a single article on all the programs?
There are such articles that explain the problem that this class of programs solves: Message broker, Message queue
I don't think so. Each of them They are very different.
It's like saying that there shouldn't be article about each kind of animal - lion, zebra, cat, etc., but rather a single article about all the animals on the planet. Visortelle (talk) 10:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
The problem I see is that people who aren't interested in the subject, are trying to evaluate the subject's notability.
For example, I absolutely don't find notable each NFL player who has lived on a planet or Maine elections (per year!!!). But it may be important to someone, and that's OK. Visortelle (talk) 10:45, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
j
Maybee you'll find support from other wikipedia admin discussing "in public" on the talk part of the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_talk:Apache_Pulsar
k
It’s already “in public”
It’s the “Help desk” area
Is there any other public places?
j
I thought about the "talk" section of the page, but the help desk area is fine. Maybee you can add a book like this one https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/mastering-apache-pulsar/9781492084891/ as a reference.
k
I added. Didn’t help.
j
Maybee the admin is a Kafka fan boy 🙂
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k
I think so.
d
What do other Apache project Wikipedia pages use as references, etc? Nearly all of them would suffer from this sort of problem where the bulk of the content is created by community members who are actively employed at a company that “sells” the software.
k
By looking at other Wikipedia articles, I don’t see that at least 20% of these requirements are fulfilled.
For me, it seems like just a random human factor. Another try by someone else with a bit another content could pass the moderation.
d
Thanks for the effort and detailed journal of the unsuccessful attempt. Would they consider articles from websites like VentureBeat, SiliconeAngle, etc, as independent sources?
k
I’ll try to ask. The problem is - it’s terribly hard to get any evaluation of references without submitting an another attempt that can be lead to full draft rejection.
d
One would hope that the Wikipedia team would make every effort to help people build content for their platform, apparently, this is not the case. Perhaps, we just take a pause for now.
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k
Maybe it’s a good idea. 🙂 It’s taking too much time.
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